Function of the FOVEON-microlenses

[LUIS A GUEVARA]

EDIT: These posts are copied from another thread, which ran a bit out of topic. Done, because this topic is worth to be discussed separately!

Klaus

Hi Luis,

I can absolutely underline all of your above findings.
I would never sell my good old SD9 for its high class pixel-sharpness which really might be due to its Foveon TypI-Sensor and its lack of microlenses.
...........

Klaus

Very nice images Klaus . Can you imagine what your dedication could do with a Leica lens in your SD9?

I have never offered a mount replacement kit for the SD9 , (The one for the SD14 will not fit the SD9 ) but I am considering making a few ones to explore the interest of the numerous SD9 owners that feel like you and me , that there was a loss of Image Quality with the introduction of microlenses.

What do you think ? What does everybody think about this . ?

Also , when the SD14 really go down in price I will attempt to remove the Microlenses and install the infrared filter right at the sensor , like the SD9 does.

I would like everybody that has an interest in these ideas to either post here or send me an email

Thanks .Luis

 

[Guest .]

Very nice images Klaus . Can you imagine what your dedication could do with a Leica lens in your SD9?

I have never offered a mount replacement kit for the SD9 , (The one for the SD14 will not fit the SD9 ) but I am considering making a few ones to explore the interest of the numerous SD9 owners that feel like you and me , that there was a loss of Image Quality with the introduction of microlenses.

What do you think ? What does everybody think about this . ?

Also , when the SD14 really go down in price I will attempt to remove the Microlenses and install the infrared filter right at the sensor , like the SD9 does.

I would like everybody that has an interest in these ideas to either post here or send me an email

Thanks .Luis

Hi Luis,

our posts overlapped ...

Well ... I use an awful lot of old manual lenses that either fit the old M42-screw-mount or the T-mount.

The unquestionable advantage of this procedure is, that fitting these lesnses is a non-destructive business.

The other point is, that I do not own NIKKOR or other highclass bajonett-mount lenses which I could use with a permanently converted SD9/10/14.

Due to "former " poverty I used to use cheap but well chosen and really good M42-stuff in the old days ...

But this could appear very different to those, who have their lenses in their shelves ...

Well ... to remove the SD14s microlenses .... sounds like an adventure to me!! Is that really possible?! You must be a magician!! :z02_respekt:

Doing without the microlenses would mean to increase the sensor's demand of light to an estimated 60%. You would have to recalibrate the camera's complete light-metering?!

Sounds fascinating!

See you with nice pictures

Klaus

 

[LUIS A GUEVARA]

... it's me again ....

Finally, even the frequently badmouthed POLAROID X530 can produce the SIGMA-effect employing a FOVEON-image sensor.

Be it, that A SIGMA is less modern, slower and much more difficult to handle ... it definately can do brilliant pictures with the most vivid colours I can imagine.



Klaus

You really have nice images ,Klaus . You seem ,like me, to like frontal or side lighting which tend to produce abundance of medium and high tones . Normal RAW processing compresses the upper tones , reducing detail and tone delicacy . Have you considered doing a LINEAR processing of those images that could benefit from expanded tonal pallette in the highlights , like this one ?:

View attachment 836

I am re posting an image that I posted in another thread (

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was processed Linearly:

View attachment 837

Luis

 

[LUIS A GUEVARA]

Hi Luis,

our posts overlapped ... ................Doing without the microlenses would mean to increase the sensor's demand of light to an estimated 60%. You would have to recalibrate the camera's complete light-metering?!

Sounds fascinating!

See you with nice pictures

Klaus

The Microlenses are like Funnels sitting on top of each Photosite , what they do is to capture the light Photons that would , otherwise, fall between the Photosites . That certainly captures more Energy to excite the 3 Layers of each energy hungry photosite.



The problem is that is using photons that contain different information and mingling them together , degrading the purity of the capture . In essence the Microlenses increase the apparent size of the Photosite . That obviously reduces Resolving Power at the Pixel level, acting like a Softener filter .

Removing the Microlenses in some sensors is trivial since they are mechanically attached to the sensor ,and in others is not since they are epoxied to it. We will have to wait and see.

 

[Guest .]

Hi Luis,

thanks for this information!

The only problem, I now have is that this info does not really fit here ... I will sort it later and open a new thread to "store" it.

EDIT: Posting originally from another thread, where it went OT! Here it belongs!

Klaus

Well, doing without these micro lenses would mean a worse signal to noise ratio on the other hand.

Sigma themselves cannot afford to worsen picture noise with their cams. This is the obvious worst point with the Foveon technology.
Silly enough, Resolution ( ... they always confuse it with pixel counts!!!...) and noise performance seems to be everything that counts to the folks!


See you with nice pictures:z04_5769:

Klaus

 

[LUIS A GUEVARA]

Hi Luis,

although I am very much in X3F-raw-processing (extremely important to achieve considerable image quality) I have to admit, that I have no idea of NORMAL vs. LINEAR RAW-processing?!
Thus, although I launched a number of "image software threads" here and in our German-forum, I would not consider myself to be an expert in the issue!

Sorry ... could you explain that in more details?! I suspect, I should not be the only one here, who would like to be taught ....

Thanks a lot Luis!!

See you with nice pictures

Klaus

Sure Klaus. I had written a small tutorial in my website that you and others

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I had also created a Thread at photo.net called:

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And a video

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It will probably be best to see them in the order shown. I hope the links work.

If there is sufficient interest maybe we could start a dedicated Thread. Luis

 

[LUIS A GUEVARA]

Hi Luis,

Well, doing without these micro lenses would mean a worse signal to noise ratio on the other hand.

Klaus

Noise in digitall images exists at the lowest end of the sensors sensitivity range . Instead of using Microlenses ( Something that I believe none of the digital Leicas use ) manufacturers should concentrate on creating more efficient lenses that TRANSMIT MORE LIGHT.

Leica is the only designer that treats light as a FLOW OF ENERGY through the lens optical path and therefore tries to minimize changes of direction that create internal losses ,as well as minimizing the number of glass elements for the same reason.

The first thing that you will notice ,if you convert your camera to Leica , is the increase in luminosity in the Viewfinder and the rejection of Noise in your images that result from exciting the photoreceptors adequately.

Of course the photographer should do whatever he or she can, to keep those photoreceptors as close to saturation as possible , as up to 2 stops of overexposure can be easily handled by LINEAR processing of the RAW files.

My recomended setting for Contrasty Front or Side lighting is about 3/4 of a stop of overexposure . That could be easily compensated in Lightroom or Camera Raw without having to do a linear conversion.

Luis

 

[foveonfan]

Noise in digitall images exists at the lowest end of the sensors sensitivity range . Instead of using Microlenses ( Something that I believe none of the digital Leicas use ) manufacturers should concentrate on creating more efficient lenses that TRANSMIT MORE LIGHT.

Leica is the only designer that treats light as a FLOW OF ENERGY through the lens optical path and therefore tries to minimize changes of direction that create internal losses ,as well as minimizing the number of glass elements for the same reason.

The first thing that you will notice ,if you convert your camera to Leica , is the increase in luminosity in the Viewfinder and the rejection of Noise in your images that result from exciting the photoreceptors adequately.

Of course the photographer should do whatever he or she can, to keep those photoreceptors as close to saturation as possible , as up to 2 stops of overexposure can be easily handled by LINEAR processing of the RAW files.

My recomended setting for Contrasty Front or Side lighting is about 3/4 of a stop of overexposure . That could be easily compensated in Lightroom or Camera Raw without having to do a linear conversion.

Luis

Thanks for teaching me to see the light, Luis.

Sincere regards, Jim R.

 

[LUIS A GUEVARA]

Thanks for teaching me to see the light, Luis.

Sincere regards, Jim R.

I am flattered ,Jim , but what exactly prompted you to say that?

Luis

 

[Guest .]

Hi Luis,

I am trying to watch your VIDEO-link above .... unfortunately, it does not work?! The link runs dead?!

I tried Firefox and the IE ... same failure?!

Are the others more successful?

View attachment 857

Is there anything, I am getting wrong?! Qicktime streams are no problem normally.

See you with nice pictures

Klaus