DPR Forum
Welcome to the Friendly Aisles!
DPRF is a spin-off of dpreview. We are a photography forum with people from all over the world freely sharing their knowledge and love of photography. Everybody is welcome, from beginners to the experienced professional. From smartphone to Medium Format.
DPRF is a community for everybody, every brand and every sensor format. Digital and film.
Enjoy this modern, easy to use software. Look also at our Reviews & Gallery!
German vs Japan made Lens
- Thread starter cy100
- Start date
T* coating is a patented production technique using a number of rare earth elements in a vaporous form allowed to settle on lens elements in a specific and secret order. Trust me, it is and has always been the same process. Any differences one may see from lens to lens is probably due to inconsistent viewing and/or lighting situations. Also, if one looks at a Vario Sonnar, for ex&le, lens with double digit lens groupings (all coated) and then looks at a four group Tessar lens then of course it will look different. Less inner reflections and elements result in different outward reflections. This string is starting to sound like a bunch of leicaphile whiners. I mean really, where it is produced does not make a bit of difference. It's all overseen by the Zeiss company and to their exact specifications. The perception may be that a german lens is better than a japanese lens, but this is based more on one's personal bias and predjudice than fact. Time and advances in technology are the real determining factors at work here. If a German lens is made in say, 1977, it may have lower tech adhesives holding the lens groups together and lesser quality inner etchings compared to today's technologies by virtue of time and the technological advances made in that time. Yes, the German lenses employed the finest quality and highest tech materials of their day, but Zeiss engineers have been improving their designs and products with every new revolution in ceramics, metalurgy, microtecnologies, and production methods. Oh, and by the way, the BMW X-5 is made in South Carolina while the Mercedes M types are made in Alabama. Does this make them Fords or Plymouths? I think not. It's just more cost effective not to build them in Germany because the boat ride over is way too pricey. Also, the so called BMW Mini Cooper S has a Chrysler engine. Who would have thunk it? Do I still want one? YES!
W
writing4me
That's a good ex&le about the cars. My favorite ex&le might be the BMW Z3 roadster being produced in Savannah Georgia - the first BMW's produced outside of Germany. The only reason Georgia was given the go-ahead was they proved they could build to a level of excellence that could not be beat. The could make BMW look good - and hold up the reputation. They had tremendous pride in winning approval. I guess it must have been the same with the production of the zeiss lenses in japan. Zeiss already had the reputation and could back it up any time they chose. I can't imagine zeiss letting their name be sullied by inferior workmanship. So why would the Japanese models be a lesser lens? Just a thought. -Lynn L.
photostranger
Member
You know, I was thinking while walking to work today...
If Nikon and Canon and other mass market manufacterers were known for from being from Canada, I am sure that when Leitz opened his factory in Canada the Leicaphiles would be all "the horrors, the horrors! leica lenses in Canada!"
I am not sure why we are compairing Nikon and Canon against Zeiss lenses. Besides, I think both Canon and Nikon make fine products for what they are, and the quality control is certainly there. Not once have I found an eyelash embedded in the coating of a inner element of a lens.
All three *can* make sufficiantly sharp lenses, and sharpness isn't really the reason I chose Zeiss to start with. Even if Nikon was contracted by Zeiss to make lenses using Zeiss formulas and materials, I have no doubt that the quality would be fine.
Kiev or Congo on the other hand.... I think I'll let the Russians and Chinese build my vacuum tubes. They seem to do a pretty good job at that.
If Nikon and Canon and other mass market manufacterers were known for from being from Canada, I am sure that when Leitz opened his factory in Canada the Leicaphiles would be all "the horrors, the horrors! leica lenses in Canada!"
I am not sure why we are compairing Nikon and Canon against Zeiss lenses. Besides, I think both Canon and Nikon make fine products for what they are, and the quality control is certainly there. Not once have I found an eyelash embedded in the coating of a inner element of a lens.
All three *can* make sufficiantly sharp lenses, and sharpness isn't really the reason I chose Zeiss to start with. Even if Nikon was contracted by Zeiss to make lenses using Zeiss formulas and materials, I have no doubt that the quality would be fine.
Kiev or Congo on the other hand.... I think I'll let the Russians and Chinese build my vacuum tubes. They seem to do a pretty good job at that.
paulcontax
Well-Known Member
Lytton Martin wrote : ...If a German lens is made in say, 1977, it may have lower tech adhesives holding the lens groups together and lesser quality inner etchings compared to today's technologies by virtue of time and the technological advances made in that time. Yes, the German lenses employed the finest quality and highest tech materials of their day, but Zeiss engineers have been improving their designs and products with every new revolution in ceramics, metalurgy, microtecnologies, and production methods....
I'm not sure that there is always an improvement in quality ! Cost factor has become more relevant thru the years than pure quality so they may have changed (lowered) quality just to decrease costs. ;-) Paul
I'm not sure that there is always an improvement in quality ! Cost factor has become more relevant thru the years than pure quality so they may have changed (lowered) quality just to decrease costs. ;-) Paul
> The improvements in manufacturing have resulted in faster designs, tighter tolerances and higher quality yields. The computing technology improvements in the last 10 years have resulted in more sophisticated designs, more use of rare earth glasses and thinner film coating techniques. It would be fair to say that many 100 year old designs have been tweaked in the past 10-20 years The difference is that computer plotting takes one computer hours, where as the old manual plotting took a staff of optical designers and mathematicians years. A lot of the internal reflection plotting is done via laser, the most sophisticated used different wavelength to plot.
All in all, it's magic. Don't worry, take pictures, be happy.
All in all, it's magic. Don't worry, take pictures, be happy.
Lynn,
BMW has manufactured cars outside Germany for decades. I worked in Apartheid South Africa in the early '80s, and locally-made BMW cruised all over the country. From the BMW ZA web site:
http://www.bmw.co.za/Fascination/CorporateInformation/default.asp?page=production-main.asp
Currently, RSA is a major exporter of the 3 class, including to the USA.
My point is that the global economy is unextricably tied together, and nation-of-origin is completely meaningless with parts and sub-assemblies coming from all over the world. My new Zeiss binoculars say "Made in Hungary", but I'm sure the glass was cast, cut and finished in Germany. As with Contax Made in Germany versus Made in Japan, we rely on the integrity of the brand to get quality product -- no other way exists.
P.S. My CZ Victory 8x20 bins are glorious!
BMW has manufactured cars outside Germany for decades. I worked in Apartheid South Africa in the early '80s, and locally-made BMW cruised all over the country. From the BMW ZA web site:
http://www.bmw.co.za/Fascination/CorporateInformation/default.asp?page=production-main.asp
Currently, RSA is a major exporter of the 3 class, including to the USA.
My point is that the global economy is unextricably tied together, and nation-of-origin is completely meaningless with parts and sub-assemblies coming from all over the world. My new Zeiss binoculars say "Made in Hungary", but I'm sure the glass was cast, cut and finished in Germany. As with Contax Made in Germany versus Made in Japan, we rely on the integrity of the brand to get quality product -- no other way exists.
P.S. My CZ Victory 8x20 bins are glorious!
M
mike_nunan
Hi Lytton,
I'm interested in your comment about the T* coating having been unchanged for years, since I can only imagine that information can have come directly from Zeiss themselves. Do (or did) you work there?
Rgds,
-= mike =-
I'm interested in your comment about the T* coating having been unchanged for years, since I can only imagine that information can have come directly from Zeiss themselves. Do (or did) you work there?
Rgds,
-= mike =-
W
writing4me
Rico, I'm not sure if you felt I was saying the opposite of what you are saying? I don't disagree with what you're saying. That's what I was trying to say about the Japanese made Zeiss lenses, I think Zeiss would have been careful about choosing where and who built them. I think maybe the point about BMW being produced in other countries is a little confusing though. I think the word "assembled" has a lot to do with it, but am not sure. Anyway, this was information I had read about BMW from the year 1995. See the second paragraph of this timeline regarding the Savannah, Georgia plant:
(quote) 1995: BMW concludes a contract for assembly in India, founds a subsidiary in Brazil and others in Norway, Finland and South Korea. BMW car assembly plants are started up in Vietnam and the Philippines. BMW Mexico brings a factory on line. The Californian company Designworks becomes a BMW subsidiary. The new 5 Series comes on to the market. The Z3 Roadster is the first BMW car to hit the road that is not produced in Germany. James Bond drives the Z3 in his latest box-office hit. 50,000 BMW motorcycles are sold - a new record for annual sales figures. Rover launches new models in the 200 and 400 series. And in Savannah (Georgia, USA) a Gulfstream V has its maiden flight powered by BMW Rolls Royce engines. (end quote)
Source is: http://www.bmw.ru/english/world/story/default.asp?cont=success/content.asp
Now before someone squawks about this list turning into a discussion of cars, don't worry, it was only a minor tangent in the discussion. A comparison.
No worries. -Lynn
(quote) 1995: BMW concludes a contract for assembly in India, founds a subsidiary in Brazil and others in Norway, Finland and South Korea. BMW car assembly plants are started up in Vietnam and the Philippines. BMW Mexico brings a factory on line. The Californian company Designworks becomes a BMW subsidiary. The new 5 Series comes on to the market. The Z3 Roadster is the first BMW car to hit the road that is not produced in Germany. James Bond drives the Z3 in his latest box-office hit. 50,000 BMW motorcycles are sold - a new record for annual sales figures. Rover launches new models in the 200 and 400 series. And in Savannah (Georgia, USA) a Gulfstream V has its maiden flight powered by BMW Rolls Royce engines. (end quote)
Source is: http://www.bmw.ru/english/world/story/default.asp?cont=success/content.asp
Now before someone squawks about this list turning into a discussion of cars, don't worry, it was only a minor tangent in the discussion. A comparison.
No worries. -Lynn