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Something about choosing between f1.0/f1.4/f2.0 is (for me) not "low light" photography but
the short DOF for extending into the more "creative" photography.
Faster films these days are very good, and not a great issue.
Mark, the main difference between M7/MP metering is that the shutter speed dial rotates in the opposite direction.
This is a bother, and Garth's suggestion about using the same body rings true with me.
(but I just wanted to experience the MP, anyway
).
The M7's (manual) exposure dial is very logical, and maybe another + for the M7.
I find the M7 camera easier to use in the manual mode, especially if the situation is challenging.
the short DOF for extending into the more "creative" photography.
Faster films these days are very good, and not a great issue.
Mark, the main difference between M7/MP metering is that the shutter speed dial rotates in the opposite direction.
This is a bother, and Garth's suggestion about using the same body rings true with me.
(but I just wanted to experience the MP, anyway
). The M7's (manual) exposure dial is very logical, and maybe another + for the M7.
I find the M7 camera easier to use in the manual mode, especially if the situation is challenging.
> [colin elliott said: Total AE without "thinking" > is never accurate unless one is photographing a grey card.<<
Gee I don't know about that Colin, as last year in 3 months I shot close to 400 rolls of film, tri-x rated at 800 and souped in XTOL 1:1 and I have to say 99.9% of the frames were shot on M7 AE lock. Oh yes and that was using 3 M7's on AE lock at the same time with different lenses.
Like, I mean this was for a book on Women in Medicine and the book is hitting the stores almost as we speak. It was the non-thinking use of the M7 AE lock that allowed me to shoot with total concentration on the subjects in the fashion I do as fast as I can relating only to the light, eyes and action of the situation.
So I have to kind of think you might be a tad off on your comment about using an M7 on AE lock and only photographing Grey cards for accuracy. You see the subjects were in hospitals all over North America by strictly available light and not one frame was lost due to the AE locked M7 exposures. Without thought. ;-)
And as far as the Noctilux? It was one of the main lenses used shooting for the book. And the same lens I've used since I purchased it around 1970 or so as my main lens of choice in my work. It's been used on assignments around the world and several other books and if I had a choice it would be the Noctilux first and everything else after.
I suppose it depends whether one works as a professional or an amateur photographer in their lens preference. I agree it's expensive and if one isn't going to use the beauty of shooting at f 1.0 very often then it's meaningless to buy the lens. However, buy it and use it at f 1.0 and one will find it's an incredibly beautiful tool. ted Grant]
Gee I don't know about that Colin, as last year in 3 months I shot close to 400 rolls of film, tri-x rated at 800 and souped in XTOL 1:1 and I have to say 99.9% of the frames were shot on M7 AE lock. Oh yes and that was using 3 M7's on AE lock at the same time with different lenses.
Like, I mean this was for a book on Women in Medicine and the book is hitting the stores almost as we speak. It was the non-thinking use of the M7 AE lock that allowed me to shoot with total concentration on the subjects in the fashion I do as fast as I can relating only to the light, eyes and action of the situation.
So I have to kind of think you might be a tad off on your comment about using an M7 on AE lock and only photographing Grey cards for accuracy. You see the subjects were in hospitals all over North America by strictly available light and not one frame was lost due to the AE locked M7 exposures. Without thought. ;-)
And as far as the Noctilux? It was one of the main lenses used shooting for the book. And the same lens I've used since I purchased it around 1970 or so as my main lens of choice in my work. It's been used on assignments around the world and several other books and if I had a choice it would be the Noctilux first and everything else after.
I suppose it depends whether one works as a professional or an amateur photographer in their lens preference. I agree it's expensive and if one isn't going to use the beauty of shooting at f 1.0 very often then it's meaningless to buy the lens. However, buy it and use it at f 1.0 and one will find it's an incredibly beautiful tool. ted Grant]
Ted, As I said, the Noctilux maybe the only way to go(if you're shooting wide open)
Far be it for me to challenge your experiences with the M7 in AE mode. My main point and it may have been unclear, was that AE without the thought process is not going to be successful. As a professional photographer, I am sure you meter with your brain, probably subconsciously at this stage, when taking your AE readings. I have been a Leica user since 1966 and during the use of various Automatic versions (R3,R4s) I used the AE frequently. My main point is that in most situations, AE does not successfully equate to point and shoot even though many people(amateurs) seem to use it that way.
The art of successful exposure requires the use of a meter plus the grey matter between your two ears!.
Ted, I am familiar with your work and congratulate you on your new book. I will probably purchase a copy.
Colin
Far be it for me to challenge your experiences with the M7 in AE mode. My main point and it may have been unclear, was that AE without the thought process is not going to be successful. As a professional photographer, I am sure you meter with your brain, probably subconsciously at this stage, when taking your AE readings. I have been a Leica user since 1966 and during the use of various Automatic versions (R3,R4s) I used the AE frequently. My main point is that in most situations, AE does not successfully equate to point and shoot even though many people(amateurs) seem to use it that way.
The art of successful exposure requires the use of a meter plus the grey matter between your two ears!.
Ted, I am familiar with your work and congratulate you on your new book. I will probably purchase a copy.
Colin
D
dmchadderton
Just to chip in with my two-penneth again ...
My initial aim is to buy a camera that will last a lifetime, and I'd like to buy something really special. I want to have a camera (and lens) that will stand the test of time if I never add another lens or accessory to it again.
So, If I chose the M7 or MP (I'm 50-50) will I be satisfied with the Summicron 50/f2, or would the Summilux 50/1.4 be better?
But then what of the flexibility if the Tri-Elmar (limited by f4)?
If I chose a 35mm, I think I would want a longer lens at least half the time.
And if I jumped in with the Noctilux, I'd get that 'once in a lifetime' f1.0, but would I rue it's relative lesser ability when stopped down? Is the performance of the Noctilux at f2 and upwards really that much worse than the Summilux/cron? And how does it compare with say, a Nikon or Canon SLR fixed lens at these apertures
Perhaps a better option is the 35mm and 90mm bought second hand?
Or maybe I should just buy my dream system now and add later, with either second hand or (and let's hear the cries) some voightlander lenses?
I'm looking forward to the answers ...
My initial aim is to buy a camera that will last a lifetime, and I'd like to buy something really special. I want to have a camera (and lens) that will stand the test of time if I never add another lens or accessory to it again.
So, If I chose the M7 or MP (I'm 50-50) will I be satisfied with the Summicron 50/f2, or would the Summilux 50/1.4 be better?
But then what of the flexibility if the Tri-Elmar (limited by f4)?
If I chose a 35mm, I think I would want a longer lens at least half the time.
And if I jumped in with the Noctilux, I'd get that 'once in a lifetime' f1.0, but would I rue it's relative lesser ability when stopped down? Is the performance of the Noctilux at f2 and upwards really that much worse than the Summilux/cron? And how does it compare with say, a Nikon or Canon SLR fixed lens at these apertures
Perhaps a better option is the 35mm and 90mm bought second hand?
Or maybe I should just buy my dream system now and add later, with either second hand or (and let's hear the cries) some voightlander lenses?
I'm looking forward to the answers ...
David, I can appreciate you might want some suggestions but these questions are really ones you will have to answer, or might already have answered. What lenses have you acquired so far in your life with your present camera? Are you satisfied with these or feel the need for some other focal lengths/apertures/facilities? A preference for using a fast 35mm lens (for ex&le) is not going to change with a different brand of camera. Any Leica should satisfy the quality desire you crave, only you will be able to tell the dealer whether you want a manual, semi automatic or wholly automatic camera. Look within yourself. But keep your options and paths open, life is not a mystery to be solved (an answer to a question) but a journey to be walked (questions to be asked). A correct answer now to your photographic desires may well not be what you want, or need, in some years to come. Try different lenses and cameras as and when you can. Meet dealers and people with these and try them out. Mostly they will let you. See which you prefer. I prefer a manual camera (m6 - I have no need of the ttl) and a fast 35mm lens, I choose the early 1.4 as the later one is too heavy/large for my wishes but I am not you, you will find your own needs. I also have many other lenses, inc. an f1.2 and a Tri-Elmar, and very wide (12mm upwards) to very long (1200mm and downwards) and very close (Macro Elmarit and micro Summar). I have digital, compact, r/f Leica clones, copies and SLRs along with cine, video and medium format. But of all of these, if left with only one lcamera and one lens it would be the small 35mm f1.4 with an M6. Best wishes, Jem Kime
justforever
Active Member
This post is familiar to everyone because we all go through this. OK...I can't help putting in my penny's worth. I would consider the M7 if it wasn't battery dependent and larger and heavier in body size...so I don't see M7 as an option. I like a mechanical camera that doesn't stop working because of the cold weather or a dead battery. The MP has a better viewfinder that is less prone to flare but is not worth 1,500 US dollars more than a used M6 Classic. I think I can live with a little flare now and then (this is a low percentage problem). In my opinion a used M6 is the best way to go. I don't see a need for TTL with a larger heavier body...the most consistent way to use flash is on manual with a simple distance/fstop chart. Try to shoot a wedding (Black groom and white bride) with TTL and you'll be happy to go manual. >>>So the ideal, for me is the M6 Classic USED.
Between the 50 vs. 35, even Ansel Adams pointed out the advantages of a 35 over a 50. You can do alot more with a 35, hand hold at lower speeds than the 50, cover wider subjects, and play with the mild distortion to yield more artistic results. To top it off, since the 35 is my main lens...used 35mm Summilux ASPH f1.4 is the way to go. If it's my main lens...I want the best...and it is unbeatable. The 90mm Elmarit f2.8 is fantastic...there I don't need ASPH or f2. Less weight and size...the perfect start...A USED M6, A USED 35mm Summilux ASPH, A used Elmarit 90mm...ALL UNDER $4,000 US dollars!
Buy the same lenses with an MP or M7 NEW for $6,700 plus tax.
Last point...it is better to buy used...if you decide to sell or trade later...you lose less.
Between the 50 vs. 35, even Ansel Adams pointed out the advantages of a 35 over a 50. You can do alot more with a 35, hand hold at lower speeds than the 50, cover wider subjects, and play with the mild distortion to yield more artistic results. To top it off, since the 35 is my main lens...used 35mm Summilux ASPH f1.4 is the way to go. If it's my main lens...I want the best...and it is unbeatable. The 90mm Elmarit f2.8 is fantastic...there I don't need ASPH or f2. Less weight and size...the perfect start...A USED M6, A USED 35mm Summilux ASPH, A used Elmarit 90mm...ALL UNDER $4,000 US dollars!
Buy the same lenses with an MP or M7 NEW for $6,700 plus tax.
Last point...it is better to buy used...if you decide to sell or trade later...you lose less.
L
leica_cl_m
Dear David,
in my experience the Nocti gets similar (or better) to Summilux at 5,6/8, and it has "the" glow. And open You can "paint" with the depth and isolate what You want...
Compared with the zoom Tri Elmar it is not "bigger" but You have to carry that weight with that big piece of glass. B.t.w. the Tri even has the 1m-lose-up limit, as 1,0 or the old 1,4/50.
And if You want to go out with a "light" & small combo but high performance: take Summicron C 2/40 or (old 3,5/50) or last not-ASPH 2/35.
Giselher
in my experience the Nocti gets similar (or better) to Summilux at 5,6/8, and it has "the" glow. And open You can "paint" with the depth and isolate what You want...
Compared with the zoom Tri Elmar it is not "bigger" but You have to carry that weight with that big piece of glass. B.t.w. the Tri even has the 1m-lose-up limit, as 1,0 or the old 1,4/50.
And if You want to go out with a "light" & small combo but high performance: take Summicron C 2/40 or (old 3,5/50) or last not-ASPH 2/35.
Giselher
D
dmchadderton
I can buy an M6TTL '999', unused, in chrome for £1595. This would free more cash for an extra lens, especially if I go second-hand ...
Here are my thoughts at the moment:
1. New M7 with Tri-Elmar or 50/1.4
2. New MP with 50/1.4 or 35/1.4
3. Mint+ M6TTL with 35/2 and 90/2.8
But I do want the MP ... !?!
Here are my thoughts at the moment:
1. New M7 with Tri-Elmar or 50/1.4
2. New MP with 50/1.4 or 35/1.4
3. Mint+ M6TTL with 35/2 and 90/2.8
But I do want the MP ... !?!
O
oskar_b
Buy the MP David!
+ 35 lux, trust me.
Craig
+ 35 lux, trust me.
Craig