Am I the last one?

[AlbertM43user]

Nice to see you here.

I think the issue is, what would you expect from a viewfinder.

I also had gone through film slr era, from full manual to AF since 70s to early 00s. As a result I wished my first digital camera must have an ovf. In fact evf were poor at that time which did not have a good reputation too. Later on while I tasted what evf was, more precisely speaking, Live View, I realized it's potential and since then, I didn't insist ovf any more.

I changed completely from "shoot-playback-adjust-shoot" to "see-to-adjust". I can't live without Live View (so is the evf).

So, what do you want to get from a view finder.

1) To do composition? Any low resolution evf could give you 100% view, that is only possible on flagship DSLR.

2) To check in focusing condition? No matter how low resolution an evf would be, at least it allows magnification and usually evf has not smaller resolution than the LCD. Using evf we don't need to put the camera away to check the result on LCD which distrubs the operation flow. Ovf simply can't do it.

3) Vf lagging might cost us shooting opportunity. Back to my FZ30 superzoom bridge camera bought in 2006, the lagging was already not material. Better for later models. Please understand, Live View of every brand, every model could be different. I read that certain early Nikon MILCs did not support real time Live View, so the early Fuji XT series! If you have bad experience on evf, would you have not bet on the right horse?

4) Info on evf, e.g. zebra and histogram for quick exposure setting, simulated result of filter/feature applied, detail lighting condition of the entire frame down to every corner, sense of background burry, any lens flare, saturation and contrast, stability issue etc etc that ovf can't offer.

Because of No.4, I would never return to ovf.

So, how would you use your viewfinder? What exactly made you hate to use evf?

 

[Lee Jay]

So, how would you use your viewfinder? What exactly made you hate to use evf?

Four things.

1) Lag. I guess I'm hyper-sensitive because EVFs others tell me have no lag have such obvious lag to me that I can't NOT see it. And it's super-distracting to me. It makes it hard to frame anything that's moving.
2) Dynamic range. In a high-contrast scene, brights are blown-out and darks are crushed making anything in those areas invisible in the viewfinder but the raw data captures those areas.
3) When moving from bright areas to dark areas (i.e. from window to indoors or from sky to ground), the system takes a moment to adjust the exposure, causing the viewfinder to be all black or all white for a moment.
4) Difference in light level emitted by the viewfinder compared to actual scene illumination. In full sun, the EVF is way, way darker than the real environment. I shoot a lot with both eyes open and this situation prevents that from working. In very dark environments, the EVF is way, way brighter than the actual scene which instantly destroys the dark adaptation of my eye. Taking the camera away from my eye can result in seconds or even minutes of re-adapting to the situation.

 

[Rich42]

I began shooting with film SLRs in the 60s. I think SLR viewfinder's were much better than DSLR viewfinders. But I've been shooting with DSLRs since 2003 and FF DSLRs since I got my D800E in 2012. It took some adapting to DSLR optical viewfinders. The viewfinders of my D800E and D850 are not what I had in my Nikon SLRs but are excellent.

I never had an EVF camera until I got my GFX 100S MF camera 2 years ago. It took some getting used to, but I go back and forth between it and my Nikons now without even noticing one is optical and the other is electronic.

Yes there is a little difference in perceived scene color balance going back and forth, and I can make the EVF "stutter" under some circumstances, but all the other things I need to pay attention to in the scene completely over-ride my awareness of the differences in the viewfinders. I think the modern EVF is not an impediment as it was in its early days.

Maybe you need to try other recent models with EVFs. Just what happens when you use an EVF? What's interfering with your ability to evaluate the scene?

edit: just saw your response above as I posted this.

Rich

 

[AlbertM43user]

Four things.

1) Lag. I guess I'm hyper-sensitive because EVFs others tell me have no lag have such obvious lag to me that I can't NOT see it. And it's super-distracting to me. It makes it hard to frame anything that's moving.
2) Dynamic range. In a high-contrast scene, brights are blown-out and darks are crushed making anything in those areas invisible in the viewfinder but the raw data captures those areas.
3) When moving from bright areas to dark areas (i.e. from window to indoors or from sky to ground), the system takes a moment to adjust the exposure, causing the viewfinder to be all black or all white for a moment.
4) Difference in light level emitted by the viewfinder compared to actual scene illumination. In full sun, the EVF is way, way darker than the real environment. I shoot a lot with both eyes open and this situation prevents that from working. In very dark environments, the EVF is way, way brighter than the actual scene which instantly destroys the dark adaptation of my eye. Taking the camera away from my eye can result in seconds or even minutes of re-adapting to the situation.

As said, you might have not meet a good live view model?

 

[Lee Jay]

As said, you might have not meet a good live view model?

Well, what's a good one? I've tried most that have been recommended, including most of the Nikons and Canons, several of the Sonys including the A7 series, an OM5 ii (I think) and probably a few I've forgotten. The OM5 was the least objectionable.

 

[AlbertM43user]

No comment on Olympus because they are often over complicated to me. E.g they have s-ovf mode on top of usual LV mode which always caused problem to its new users.

Have you tried a Panasonic G9 for your purpose?

 

[AlbertM43user]

No comment on Olympus because they are often over complicated to me. E.g they have s-ovf mode on top of usual LV mode which always caused problem to its new users.

Have you tried a Panasonic G9 for your purpose?

No experience on Canon or Sony. But when Nikon released its earlier Z models, I tried them in showroom and found having to hit the LV key to display the latest LV simulated image after the setting. It does not match with real time LV to me... LV is a very general terms but it might work differently among every brand...

Dear friend I am not going to persuade you to use evf (LV), just wish to give a more fair image on what LV should be nowadays.

 

[Lee Jay]

No comment on Olympus because they are often over complicated to me. E.g they have s-ovf mode on top of usual LV mode which always caused problem to its new users.

Have you tried a Panasonic G9 for your purpose?

Never heard of it.

I do own quite a lot of Canon gear - 3 flashes, 9 lenses (I think) and a whole bag of accessories. Plus 3 SLRs.

 

[dirk]

the most recent a Canon R6

the Canon R6 has a viewfinder with 3.69 Million dots resolution. This is not that much.

For a better experience with EVF, you have to look at 3 specifications: Viewfinder resolution, refresh rate and blackout time.

To get an "almost" as good experience as with a mirror, you need at least a resolution of 5.6k (i.e. Leica SL, Panasonic Lumix S1R and S1) and a refresh rate of 120 Mhz. Unfortunately, both is very expensive and is draining the battery a lot. This is why all brands hesitate to do it and if they do, you have to enable i.e. the higher refresh rate in the menu first.

But I am sure, that in 5 years, this will be standard with many more cameras. Same goes for better a blackout time.

 

[Lee Jay]

the Canon R6 has a viewfinder with 3.69 Million dots resolution. This is not that much.

For a better experience with EVF, you have to look at 3 specifications: Viewfinder resolution, refresh rate and blackout time.

Resolution is not one of my issues with EVFs. In fact, one of my favorite EVFs is also the lowest resolution one I've every tried.

To get an "almost" as good experience as with a mirror, you need at least a resolution of 5.6k (i.e. Leica SL, Panasonic Lumix S1R and S1) and a refresh rate of 120 Mhz.

I'm hoping you meant 120Hz.

Unfortunately, both is very expensive and is draining the battery a lot. This is why all brands hesitate to do it and if they do, you have to enable i.e. the higher refresh rate in the menu first.

EVFs suck battery like crazy. From the specs, I'd need at least 10 batteries for a day of shooting.

But I am sure, that in 5 years, this will be standard with many more cameras. Same goes for better a blackout time.

Generally, I'm unable to use EVFs to even get to the point of shooting a picture (except of easy subjects). So blackout time is the least of my worries.