Leica RDigital Back

[Craig24]

Leica is capable of producing very fine products outside their traditional optics based field. The S1 digital studio camera is just one ex&le.

As I see it, the issues over a Leica developing an SLR digital back; are, how committed will Leica AG be to the existing R lens mount into the future.

Will they maintain the current R mount and make a series of digital lenses that fit the sensor format, or perhaps do the traditional Leica thing and make an optical gadget to convert the 35mm format lenses to APS?

Or are they eventually going to redesign the R lens mount so that it will accommodate a 24 x 36 mm sized sensor chip? This has profound implications to thousands of Leica owners.

Does size really matter? Is a full frame chip really necessary when it comes to digital image quality? Or will a sightly smaller but higher MP count chip do as good or even a better job.

There has been much talk, for many years, over the benefits of sharp Leica R lenses to digital capture. If this is true, then the 10MP APS sensor (which is big in regards to picture element count compared to the more usual 6 to 8 MP in most SLR type cameras) combined with good optics, should be formidable combination.

Remember that nobody except maybe Contax have really started to look at making lenses that are specifically designed for digital SLR photography. Perhaps Leica has taken a more whole systems approach in their R&D for the rumoured R9 digiback. My fear is that they may be following the pack.

craig

 

[david40]

> All this hooha and earnest debate boils down to one fundamental issue: the future of film v digital (for the umpteenth time). As a journalist working at a paper whose pro photogs use digital now 100 per cent of the time, and as someone who greatly appreciates the instant transmission of digital files, I can see the benefits of new digital technology. A Leica digital back would be useful and is a sound move. It would combine the virtues of Leica longevity and optical prowess with Japanese digital know-how.

It seems this is the way Leica is going: concentrating on optical success and offering the benefits of a sound design and construction heritage - even if not always under the Leica name. Panasonic for ex&le is a reliable Japanese brand, and combined with Leica lenses (Lumix digital range) it seems a successful comnination. The latest Leica digital D-Lux product also looks like a well-thought out design.

Why then do I still favour film and the Leica M (M3 and MP)? Although I can see the immense practical advanatges of digital in everyday news situations, it is not always essential, and for my own use, I like the more leisurely approach of a film camera. So, the answer seems to be for Leica to concentrate on different markets: the pro user, the keen amateur, and the photo enthusiast.

Of course, for all but the pro, the digi back is liable to be prohibitively expensive, such is the absurd price attached to anything even remotely connected with silicon and computers. And of course, it won't last very long either. You will have to get a new one in a few years, or it will have simply failed. Also, it will require a vast amount of battery power.

As a slight aside: has anyone heard about the latest digi development? You hook up a film card with a conventional enlarger to produce good old B+W prints in the oldfashioned chemical way. Sounds absolutely absurd.

There is yet another solution, one which seems to have been overlooked in recent years: the possible develoment of "digital film", seen just a few years ago a the ideal solution. What on earth happened to this idea?

 

[Craig24]

So much attention to the digital revolution is concentrated on the developments in dig SLR technologies, and as David has pointed out this is just one really small part of digital. A one which realistically has limited application to certain areas of commercial photography.

My personal interests in photography is the printmaking side things. One of the disadvantages of small format photography was that it was, till now, tied into only a few mass-produced printing media. Photography has always been much bigger than that, with many thousands of ways to print photographically. Digital, either via high res scanners or R9 digibacks, is a means of opening up Leica photography to endless printmaking possibilities.

The great advances made in inkjet printing technologies over the last decade, now allow colour imagery to be produced on fine art papers using more stable lightfast pigments. No more RC C type prints that loose their brilliance or fade away in a matter of years. Or having your favourite FB paper discontinued.

The ability to make high quality large format digital negatives on acetate film from 35mm, has exciting possibilities. Hopefully the current costs of this technology will come down and make it more accessible to the general market. No more hours in the darkroom laboriously coping 35mm onto large format film stock. Voila, Platinotypes, Salted Prints, or Carbon from 35mm straight out of the can! Truly amazing stuff.

Craig

 

[dlux]

> [I know that with the critical reviews about its image quality the Leica Digilux/Panasonic SDC-LC5 seems like a poor approach for all of the "M" and "R" Series afficionados here, but I really am enjoying its results at ISO 100 with the Summicron f/2-2.5, 33-100 mm (effective) lens. I have jpegs posted under the name Dlux at the Leicainfo gallery if anyone is interested. Bruce Dale also has some delightful, professional level work posted at his site, www.brucedale.com]

 

[sclamb]

David

You sated:

"Of course, for all but the pro, the digi back is liable to be prohibitively expensive, such is the absurd price attached to anything even remotely connected with silicon and computers."

This is absolutely not true. Look at the Canon D10. 6MP CMOS sensor designed and produced by Canon, rated 10 out of 10 in just about every review published and costs $1,500!! This is part of the point I have been trying to make. I doubt Leica will be able to sell a digital back at this sort of price and I very much doubt they will produce a better sensor as they will be buying it in and I bet cnaon won't sell theirs, which is currently the state of the art.

Leica digital will be for those that can afford it. Everyone else will use Canon, Nikon etc.

Simon

 

[Craig24]

Please Simon

You can’t be serious, the 10-D a profession grade camera, hardly! The day Leica put a pop up 13GN flash in the R9 is when I go exclusively to sheet film. The only so called professionals that use this sort of gear do $2000 (Australian) weddings.

If you can’t use it in a tropical down pour and drop it on concrete and then keep using it, it is definitely not a pro camera. You can not seriously compare the 10D to the EOS 1 cameras or a Leica. I think Leica can do a lot better than that. The competition for a Leica Dig SLR will be the EOS 1Ds. That is the current benchmark for solidly built professional quality digital cameras. Anything else from Leica will fail. Do you really think a market savvy company like Canon would put a $8000 US price tag on its 1Ds camera for a joke. There are good reasons why the 10D sells for just$1500.

One could also point to many of the glowing reviews written about the Leica S1 professional studio camera, but I doubt you have even heard of it. And at a price tag of around $30 000 Australian (halve for the Euro or US) I guess it was way out of your price range.

The consumer magazines don’t like Leica because in the main they don’t make cameras aimed squarely at the consumer market. If you buy Leica you are buying a professional quality camera and you expect to pay professional quality price tags. If you don’t want to pay the price invest in a Fiji Kodak or 10D, but don’t use any of them in the rain.

Have a good look through the stock market and share price listings for companies manufacturing CMOS chips. Read between the lines and see if you think the future is rosy there.

craig

 

[sclamb]

Craig

Get real please! How many pros use an R camera? Yeah right, less than 5%, if that, and because they are not right for the job. And yes, read the specs, the 10D has the same sealing as the 1DS, the same body construction. No, it is not a pro camera and I never said it was. But at $1,500 it is terrific value for money, widely regarded as reprsenting the state of the digital art with the CMOS sensor and advanced image processor, and fit for purpose.

I never said the R is a pro camera either, as it certainly isn't used by any of the 100s of pros that I know. They want rugged reliability and affordable optics with excellent quality, and get that in the 1 series cameras and L series lenses.

If you are a pro and want to use an R then by all means do - you will be the one to miss the deadlines. And if you want to understand more about why the R is not widely used by pros, look back at any Leica group archive and see the enormous number of problems and failures that R cameras have suffered from.

Leica Digital will never compete with the 1DS as it is mooted to not be full frame so any comparison is pointless. How exactly do you think Leica will do better than the 10D, especially when they will be relying on a third party to make the sensors. Canon design and manufacure in-house, with an R&D budget many times more than Leica earn in annual revenue. Get real Craig, Leica survives on the optical quality of its lenses, not on the functionaity of its bodies or its research into digital imaging technology. Hence the tie up with Panasonic for the Digilux.

Not only have I heard of the S1 I have also used one. Do you seruously think many people bought one. If you do I suggest you speak to Leica and see what the numbers were.

So Craig, I am serious. I would use the 10D in the rain, more so that I would an R9, god know what would happen to the electrics or anything else on the R! I hope that answers any doubts you may have had!

Oh and one more point, the competition for the R Digital would not be the 1DS since by 2004 Canon will in all probability have a better and even more advanced pro digital offering. That's the beauty of significant R&D budgets and investment. Shame Leica doesn't have that level and shame they will be pinning all on the success of the R Digital.

Simon

 

[Craig24]

Dear Simon

Touché This sort of healthy stoush is best done over a good pint or two at the pub.

Most would agree that Canon build some damn good stuff. Results from their digital SLRs speak for themselves. I don’t share your enthusiasm for their lenses, however. But that is another long storey and this is a Leica Forum after all.

To get to the point, Leica can’t just enter the Dig SLR market with any old product, it must compare well with the 1Ds. Particularly with the list price expected from Leica. I do share your scepticism as to whether they can pull it off. But lets wait and see before we judge. If a 24x36 chip is the panacea why settle for the smaller 10D? My views on this subject appear elsewhere.

>“Oh and one more point, the competition for the R Digital would not be the 1DS since by 2004 Canon will in all probability have a better and even more advanced pro digital offering. That's the beauty of significant R&D budgets and investment. Shame Leica doesn't have that level and shame they will be pinning all on the success of the R Digitalâ€<

Simon you have hit the nail squarely on the head. THAT IS JUST THE POINT THAT WE SHOULD ALL BE CONCERNED ABOUT!!!!. But let Canon sell a few 1Ds first. That way they can capitalise on all the mug punters who bought one to build up their healthy R&D budget. Why pay the equivalent to $8000 US for a tool that will be obsolete in no time flat. I just hope Leica doesn’t go the same way. And that is the big issue for all us Leica users. It will indeed be a shame!!!

Alright, I do admit my R cameras are always accompanied by a M or two just in case. This said the R9 has had a couple of good soakings and quite a few bumps with no apparent ill affects yet.

craig

 

[sclamb]

Craig

I think our discourse mya have reached it natural conclusion ;-) I really do hope Leica have a killer digital offering, but I have a problem envisioning it.

As you, me and many others have said we will have to wait and see!

Simon

 

[Craig24]

Simon

You really need a pub to make the most of this kind of discussion. A list forum group just doesn't have room.

regards craig