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Leica RDigital Back
- Thread starter dirk
- Start date
It is no rumour anymore! Leica today announced officially that they will offer a digital back for the R9/R8 in 2004.
But hold on - it will cost ca. 4500 Euro and it will be offered at the Photokina in 2004, which means September/October 2004! Also the wording "present", means they will show something, but it is still unclear whether this will also be available at that time
Leica will design/produce this digital back together with Imacon and Kodak. It will have a 10MP chip, 26,4 x 17,6 mm (factor 1,37x). The Iso will be 100-800, it will have a LCD colour screen, Firewire and SD card slot. A "power unit" will be offered too.
So all in all IMHO very disappointing. It is basically the same information we announced already under the cover "rumour" and the same negative points are still there:
- Price. Will be changed anyway til we see it in the shelves.
- Timeframe. To announce something in the digital world 15 months ahead is ridicilous.
- Specs. Sounds now great, but the competition will have offered 2 more digital-generations within that timeframe and nobody knows what the the then-current standard will be.
Dirk
But hold on - it will cost ca. 4500 Euro and it will be offered at the Photokina in 2004, which means September/October 2004! Also the wording "present", means they will show something, but it is still unclear whether this will also be available at that time
Leica will design/produce this digital back together with Imacon and Kodak. It will have a 10MP chip, 26,4 x 17,6 mm (factor 1,37x). The Iso will be 100-800, it will have a LCD colour screen, Firewire and SD card slot. A "power unit" will be offered too.
So all in all IMHO very disappointing. It is basically the same information we announced already under the cover "rumour" and the same negative points are still there:
- Price. Will be changed anyway til we see it in the shelves.
- Timeframe. To announce something in the digital world 15 months ahead is ridicilous.
- Specs. Sounds now great, but the competition will have offered 2 more digital-generations within that timeframe and nobody knows what the the then-current standard will be.
Dirk
Ok, we followed the press conference on the internet and this is a summary of it.
1. the whole stuff is still in the design/development status. They hope to offer it by autumn 2004
2. The size will be similar to to an R8/R9 with attached motordrive
3. The chip will be designed and manufactured by Kodak and Imacon exclusively for Leica
4. ISO 800 is a minimum requirement. They hope to be able to go higher.
5. The digital back is/are actually 2 parts. First the back itself with the chip in it, second the power unit which will be attached at the buttom like a motordrive. The latter one hold a Lio-Ion batter in it and the electronics.
6. Imacon developped a technique for this to minimize the power consumption and to reduce the noise level by 50% in the picture.
7. They say it needs around 1 minute to switch between digital and film ready to go position.
8. The pixel size is 6.8
9. There is no USB 2.0 (they think Firewire would be more important)
10. All lenses are compatible, but ROM lenses will be able to tranmit more data to the chip, so there might be some plans for future versions in the same direction as Olympus with calculating vignetting etc.)
11. There will be a protection on the chip, which can only be removed after the digital back is firmly attached on the body.
12. Problems with dust will be solved with a software solution. But they do not have that finished, so they can not tell any details.
13. They will offer a special viewing screen, which has a frame - well known with Leica M-cameras. Since the factor is 1.37, you can see what is going on outside of the picture.
Surprisingly Leica confirmed basically all arguments that Olympus used for the introduction of the 4/3rd system.
Leica confirmed that lenses, not specifically designed for digital photography, would show worse performance in the corners then the same lens with film. Since Leica uses the factor 1.37, the corners do not come on the picture anymore, only the center of the lens design will be used.
There will be no similar solution for the M-System, because of the smaller distance between the last lens element in a M-lens and the location of the chip, light rays would hit the chip in an angle which would result in worse images (this is no probelm with normal film). SLR cameras have a bigger distance and are therefore better to use. Fullframe for the R-system would not have been possible as long as they do not want to design a totally new body (and I guess also a new lens mount).
So the good thing is that they at least try something, the bad thing is that they (IMHO) totally misinterprete the future development in computerindustry.
I do not think that in one year or later you will find many computers with firewire. It is more likely that they will all have USB 2.0 or higher.
Also in question is the use of SD cards in the future.
I could live wit ISO range 100-800, but not with 4500 Euro. And 10MP in one year might sound differently than today.
At the end of the day, it seems to be a strategic move to announce all this now, over one year ahead. Hopefully they can deliver something really good by then or they will have the same marketing problem as Contax with the ND.
The question is, whether a Leica user will wait so long and will spend 4500 Euro in a digital back with afactor of 1.37. Or he might just by in autumn 2004 a complete new system parallel to his R-System for the same money with 10MP and incl. lenses etc.
Time will tell...
1. the whole stuff is still in the design/development status. They hope to offer it by autumn 2004
2. The size will be similar to to an R8/R9 with attached motordrive
3. The chip will be designed and manufactured by Kodak and Imacon exclusively for Leica
4. ISO 800 is a minimum requirement. They hope to be able to go higher.
5. The digital back is/are actually 2 parts. First the back itself with the chip in it, second the power unit which will be attached at the buttom like a motordrive. The latter one hold a Lio-Ion batter in it and the electronics.
6. Imacon developped a technique for this to minimize the power consumption and to reduce the noise level by 50% in the picture.
7. They say it needs around 1 minute to switch between digital and film ready to go position.
8. The pixel size is 6.8
9. There is no USB 2.0 (they think Firewire would be more important)
10. All lenses are compatible, but ROM lenses will be able to tranmit more data to the chip, so there might be some plans for future versions in the same direction as Olympus with calculating vignetting etc.)
11. There will be a protection on the chip, which can only be removed after the digital back is firmly attached on the body.
12. Problems with dust will be solved with a software solution. But they do not have that finished, so they can not tell any details.
13. They will offer a special viewing screen, which has a frame - well known with Leica M-cameras. Since the factor is 1.37, you can see what is going on outside of the picture.
Surprisingly Leica confirmed basically all arguments that Olympus used for the introduction of the 4/3rd system.
Leica confirmed that lenses, not specifically designed for digital photography, would show worse performance in the corners then the same lens with film. Since Leica uses the factor 1.37, the corners do not come on the picture anymore, only the center of the lens design will be used.
There will be no similar solution for the M-System, because of the smaller distance between the last lens element in a M-lens and the location of the chip, light rays would hit the chip in an angle which would result in worse images (this is no probelm with normal film). SLR cameras have a bigger distance and are therefore better to use. Fullframe for the R-system would not have been possible as long as they do not want to design a totally new body (and I guess also a new lens mount).
So the good thing is that they at least try something, the bad thing is that they (IMHO) totally misinterprete the future development in computerindustry.
I do not think that in one year or later you will find many computers with firewire. It is more likely that they will all have USB 2.0 or higher.
Also in question is the use of SD cards in the future.
I could live wit ISO range 100-800, but not with 4500 Euro. And 10MP in one year might sound differently than today.
At the end of the day, it seems to be a strategic move to announce all this now, over one year ahead. Hopefully they can deliver something really good by then or they will have the same marketing problem as Contax with the ND.
The question is, whether a Leica user will wait so long and will spend 4500 Euro in a digital back with afactor of 1.37. Or he might just by in autumn 2004 a complete new system parallel to his R-System for the same money with 10MP and incl. lenses etc.
Time will tell...
old_admin_CI
Well-Known Member
Here are some pictures of an R9 with a digital back:
George
I very much doubt that the product development lifecycle will alow for signifcant changes, certainly not without significant cost. If you start moving the goal posts you risk a) escalating and uncontrolled costs, b) a never finshed project/product, c) missing the market opportunity.
I think you will be stuck with a 10MP digital back when all others will be at 20MP +. But hey, it will be a Leica 10MP so of course everyone will spend €4500 on one. The saving grace will be that it might be the only film/digital offering in the same body.
Simon
I very much doubt that the product development lifecycle will alow for signifcant changes, certainly not without significant cost. If you start moving the goal posts you risk a) escalating and uncontrolled costs, b) a never finshed project/product, c) missing the market opportunity.
I think you will be stuck with a 10MP digital back when all others will be at 20MP +. But hey, it will be a Leica 10MP so of course everyone will spend €4500 on one. The saving grace will be that it might be the only film/digital offering in the same body.
Simon
This part of the announcement pack was interesting. A Kodak spokesperson stated:
“Kodak selected this pixel structure and a special
sensor solution in order to satisfy the high demands of photo enthusiasts
regarding resolution, sensitivity and dynamic rangeâ€
Let's hope they didn't issue the same text when they developed the Kodak 14n which has some mediocre image quality in places.
Interesting to see what other manufacturers stick with 10MP sensors in 18 months time. I suspect we will all be expecting/using 20+ MP by then. Then again, Leica has never exactly been at the forefront of camera technology. Great design and build and superlative lenses, but lens imaging excellence and camera technology are separate things.
That said, if this has the quality we will expect, then 10MP may satisfy a great many people. Certainly Imacon and Kodak know how to get the best from each other from their work on the Flextight scanners, albeit a scanner sensor is different to a camera sensor.
Simon
“Kodak selected this pixel structure and a special
sensor solution in order to satisfy the high demands of photo enthusiasts
regarding resolution, sensitivity and dynamic rangeâ€
Let's hope they didn't issue the same text when they developed the Kodak 14n which has some mediocre image quality in places.
Interesting to see what other manufacturers stick with 10MP sensors in 18 months time. I suspect we will all be expecting/using 20+ MP by then. Then again, Leica has never exactly been at the forefront of camera technology. Great design and build and superlative lenses, but lens imaging excellence and camera technology are separate things.
That said, if this has the quality we will expect, then 10MP may satisfy a great many people. Certainly Imacon and Kodak know how to get the best from each other from their work on the Flextight scanners, albeit a scanner sensor is different to a camera sensor.
Simon
F
fastfashn
George,
There is something you don't understand about electronics. The tighter = you pack the transistors, the hotter the sensors/processors/VLSI stuff = gets. In a computer you get around that by adding heat sinks, liquid cooling, = fans, and other fun things that you cannot do with a 35mm-sized camera body. = Look at the size of D-SLRs right now, you think that this clunkyness is all = just wasted space?=20
If they manage to make a 20Mp digital 35mm sized camera you are going = to have to deal with a lot of heat, big batteries, and less portability = and more storage. The poor things are already saddled with USB and 1394 = ports, worthless (in sunlight) LCD screens, places to stick memory cards, and = more automation to help the idiots that are the press these days.
I give a hell of a lot of credit to Leica for what they are trying to = do - and maintain the user base they already have with the cameras already = out there instead of saying that everyone has to buy a new system (see the failed Contax N-Digital).
I am really going to seriously consider an R8 or R9 now, because I know = that in 2004 I won't have to buy new lenses and throw all my equipment out a window because some marketing suit has decreed that I must now buy an autofocus plastic POS.
Film - It's looking better all the time.
Dana Curtis Kincaid Indianapolis, IN, USA
"George
I very much doubt that the product development lifecycle will alow for signifcant changes, certainly not without significant cost. If you = start moving the goal posts you risk a) escalating and uncontrolled costs, b) = a never finshed project/product, c) missing the market opportunity.
I think you will be stuck with a 10MP digital back when all others will = be at 20MP +. But hey, it will be a Leica 10MP so of course everyone will = spend =884500 on one. The saving grace will be that it might be the only film/digital offering in the same body.
Simon"
There is something you don't understand about electronics. The tighter = you pack the transistors, the hotter the sensors/processors/VLSI stuff = gets. In a computer you get around that by adding heat sinks, liquid cooling, = fans, and other fun things that you cannot do with a 35mm-sized camera body. = Look at the size of D-SLRs right now, you think that this clunkyness is all = just wasted space?=20
If they manage to make a 20Mp digital 35mm sized camera you are going = to have to deal with a lot of heat, big batteries, and less portability = and more storage. The poor things are already saddled with USB and 1394 = ports, worthless (in sunlight) LCD screens, places to stick memory cards, and = more automation to help the idiots that are the press these days.
I give a hell of a lot of credit to Leica for what they are trying to = do - and maintain the user base they already have with the cameras already = out there instead of saying that everyone has to buy a new system (see the failed Contax N-Digital).
I am really going to seriously consider an R8 or R9 now, because I know = that in 2004 I won't have to buy new lenses and throw all my equipment out a window because some marketing suit has decreed that I must now buy an autofocus plastic POS.
Film - It's looking better all the time.
Dana Curtis Kincaid Indianapolis, IN, USA
"George
I very much doubt that the product development lifecycle will alow for signifcant changes, certainly not without significant cost. If you = start moving the goal posts you risk a) escalating and uncontrolled costs, b) = a never finshed project/product, c) missing the market opportunity.
I think you will be stuck with a 10MP digital back when all others will = be at 20MP +. But hey, it will be a Leica 10MP so of course everyone will = spend =884500 on one. The saving grace will be that it might be the only film/digital offering in the same body.
Simon"